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Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator

Hello everyone!

First of all, thanks again for being part of keeping Foodsoft in the air, and making it better.
Even if it is August already, app.foodcoops.net still is running, and we have some time left. And with (almost) everyone subscribed now, it's time to get going.

The steps to take, I see as follows (feel free to adapt and add):

  • Find a hosting provider.
    • Input welcome! I'm currently running the Dutch instances on a Leaseweb virtual machine, which has worked pretty well in the past years, but perhaps you know of better options. Would be nice to do something green/sustainable, but in the past that costed more than the foodcoops were willing to afford. Perhaps now, with more groups, there is more room for that? Anyway, let's not get stuck on this too long.
    • For comparison: I'm currently renting 2GB RAM / 2vcpu at Leaseweb for two Foodsoft deployments serving 8 foodcoops in total, setup as here [3]; 100MB in and out daily traffic on busy days). The extra RAM is useful for loading large spreadsheets.
    • Did someone happen to mail Posteo for sponsoring?
    • We can try to see if XS4All is interested in sponsoring (not sure of the chances).
  • Make Foodsoft ready for deployment
    • Most people I've spoken to prefer Docker. I think that would be a great improvement to Capistrano.
    • There has been some recent work on Dockerization (PR#484 pending). Docker Hub official foodsoft image is working again (thanks @paroga).
    • Finish configuration with environment variables (we may be there already).
    • sending mail (incl. anti-spam measures and documentation for subdomain-hosting)
    • receiving mail (recent mail hook addition, or perhaps figure this out later? I don't think app.foodcoops.net has this currently)
    • database setup
    • redis setup (e.g. manual Docker container exposed in Foodsoft env?)
    • ssl setup with letsencrypt
    • figure out how we will manage app_config.yml
    • document how to deploy
    • ...
  • Make sharedlists ready for deployment (required for shared suppliers).
    • Dockerize. Let's get bennibu's version done first (later foodcoop-adam's sharedlists - more later merge the two, perhaps).
    • figure out which suppliers we'll need to import, contact them for credentials, and configure.

Hope this will get the discussion, preperation, and the work going. Looking forward to hearing from you!

Best,
- Willem

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Re: Technical steps

Robert
Hi,


> First of all, thanks again for being part of keeping Foodsoft in the
> air, and making it better.

thank *you*!


>   * Find a hosting provider.
>       o Input welcome! I'm currently running the Dutch instances on a
>         Leaseweb <http://leaseweb.com/> virtual machine, which has
>         worked pretty well in the past years, but perhaps you know of
>         better options. Would be nice to do something
> green/sustainable, but in the past that costed more than the
> foodcoops were willing to afford. Perhaps now, with more groups,
> there is more room for that? Anyway, let's not get stuck on this too
> long.

I had good experience with UD Media in the past. That would be green
energy at least.


> o For comparison: I'm currently renting 2GB RAM / 2vcpu at
>         Leaseweb for two Foodsoft deployments serving 8 foodcoops in
>         total, setup as here [3]; 100MB in and out daily traffic on
> busy days). The extra RAM is useful for loading large spreadsheets.

https://www.udmedia.de/server/#managed-server

50 GB hard drive, 1 core, 4 GB memory, 100 GB traffic -> 40 € per month
(probably annual payment). Sorry, the page seems to be available only
in German.


>       o Did someone happen to mail Posteo for sponsoring?

Yes, I mailed them, but there was no response (so far). Probably
they're not interested.


>   * Make sharedlists <http://github.com/bennibu/sharedlists> ready for
>     deployment (required for shared suppliers).
>       o figure out which suppliers we'll need to import, contact them
>         for credentials, and configure.

In Rostock we need access to TERRA articles, maybe we can use the
credentials Benni used so far:
http://terra-natur.com/

Robert
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Re: Technical steps

Robert
Robert wrote
> o For comparison: I'm currently renting 2GB RAM / 2vcpu at
>         Leaseweb for two Foodsoft deployments serving 8 foodcoops in
>         total, setup as here [3]; 100MB in and out daily traffic on
> busy days). The extra RAM is useful for loading large spreadsheets.

https://www.udmedia.de/server/#managed-server

50 GB hard drive, 1 core, 4 GB memory, 100 GB traffic -> 40 € per month
(probably annual payment). Sorry, the page seems to be available only
in German.
We don't want a managed server probably. I can ask for root server costs, if you like:
https://www.udmedia.de/server/#root-server
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Re: Technical steps

Julius
>> 50 GB hard drive, 1 core, 4 GB memory, 100 GB traffic -> 40 € per month
>> (probably annual payment). Sorry, the page seems to be available only
>> in German.
> We don't want a managed server probably. I can ask for root server costs, if
> you like:
> https://www.udmedia.de/server/#root-server

Yes, @Robert I would like to see what udmedia.de offers us as a root server.

I also expect that root access could become a requirement at some point.

What about a virtual server? Hetzner (a well-known and reliable German
provider) offers

* 2 virtual cores
* 50 GB SSD
* 2 GB RAM
* 5 TB traffic per month

for 8.21 Euro per month (including taxes) [1].

[1] https://www.hetzner.de/virtual-server

A dedicated server from Hetzner which we could virtualize ourselves
starts at 46.41 Euro per month (including taxes) [2]. However, currently
I think that this would be more than we need.

[2] https://www.hetzner.de/dedicated-rootserver/matrix-ex

I plan to go through all other points you @Willem and @Andre started as
soon as possible (probably tomorrow).

Regards,
Julius
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Re: Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator
On 08-08-17 12:03, Julius [via foodsoft] wrote:

> >> 50 GB hard drive, 1 core, 4 GB memory, 100 GB traffic -> 40 € per
> month
> >> (probably annual payment). Sorry, the page seems to be available only
> >> in German.
> > We don't want a managed server probably. I can ask for root server
> costs, if
> > you like:
> > https://www.udmedia.de/server/#root-server
>
> Yes, @Robert I would like to see what udmedia.de offers us as a root
> server.
>
> I also expect that root access could become a requirement at some point.
Yes, we'll need root access.

> What about a virtual server? Hetzner (a well-known and reliable German
> provider) offers
>
> * 2 virtual cores
> * 50 GB SSD
> * 2 GB RAM
> * 5 TB traffic per month
>
> for 8.21 Euro per month (including taxes) [1].
>
> [1] https://www.hetzner.de/virtual-server
>
> A dedicated server from Hetzner which we could virtualize ourselves
> starts at 46.41 Euro per month (including taxes) [2]. However, currently
> I think that this would be more than we need.
>
> [2] https://www.hetzner.de/dedicated-rootserver/matrix-ex

Interesting, it seems they also put some effort in sustainability.

Other sustainable/green option would be Greenhost (2GB RAM, 20GB SSD,
2TB traffic, EUR 29 p/m). I could contact to see if we can get a reduced
price (they've sponsored foodcoops before, not sure if they want to do
that again).
https://greenhost.net/products/virtual-private-servers/linux-vps/

- Willem
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Re: Technical steps

Robert
In reply to this post by Julius
Am Tue, 8 Aug 2017 03:03:11 -0700 (MST)
schrieb "Julius [via foodsoft]" <[hidden email]>:

> >> 50 GB hard drive, 1 core, 4 GB memory, 100 GB traffic -> 40 € per
> >> month (probably annual payment). Sorry, the page seems to be
> >> available only in German.  
> > We don't want a managed server probably. I can ask for root server
> > costs, if you like:
> > https://www.udmedia.de/server/#root-server 
>
> Yes, @Robert I would like to see what udmedia.de offers us as a root
> server.

They point us to the smallest managed server and ask, what we need. As
I remember: Very quick and personal support.
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Re: Technical steps

Robert
In reply to this post by wvengen
>   * Find a hosting provider.
>       o Input welcome!

https://www.netcup.de/vserver/

With eco-power. We will probably be using it for another project.
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Re: Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator

On 08-08-17 17:36, Robert [via foodsoft] wrote:
> >   * Find a hosting provider.
> >       o Input welcome!
>
> https://www.netcup.de/vserver/
>
> With eco-power. We will probably be using it for another project.
Interesting, pretty cheap, enough scale for proper tooling (remote
console), while still using eco-power.

So we now have, for a virtual self-managed server:

  PROVIDER   RAM  CPU HD    BW    EUR/m ECO
  Leaseweb   2GB  2   60GB   6TB  10    
  Leaseweb   4GB  4   80GB   8TB  18    
  Greenhost  2GB  1   20GB   2TB  29     y
  Greenhost  4GB  2   50GB   4TB  49     y
  Hetzner    2GB  2   50GB   5TB   8    
  Hetzner    4GB  2  100GB   8TB  14    
  Netcup     2GB  2   40GB  25TB   4     y
  Netcup     4GB  4   80GB  25TB   5     y
  Netcup     8GB  6  160GB  25TB   9     y

Netcup looks like a good choice, with the current options I'd go for the
4GB RAM option and see if we can manage with that.

- Willem
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Re: Technical steps

paroga
Administrator
wvengen wrote
  * Make Foodsoft ready for deployment
      o Most people I've spoken to prefer Docker. I think that would be
        a great improvement to Capistrano.
I'd like to make Docker the default/prefered/offical deployment method.

wvengen wrote
      o There has been some recent work on Dockerization (PR#484
        <https://github.com/foodcoops/foodsoft/pull/484> pending).
        Docker Hub official foodsoft image is working again (thanks
        @paroga).
Do you think it's ready to be merged into master?

wvengen wrote
      o Finish configuration with environment variables (we may be there
        already).
PR484 should do the trick.

wvengen wrote
      o sending mail (incl. anti-spam measures and documentation for
        subdomain-hosting)
What kind of anti-spam measures do you need for SENDING mails?

wvengen wrote
      o receiving mail (recent mail hook addition, or perhaps figure
        this out later? I don't think app.foodcoops.net has this currently)
It's still in the "testing" phase and I wouldn't recommend to activate it on all production systems. I just enabled it for my foodcoop a few days ago (even the code is from february) and don't know about all possible cases which happen in the wild with all the different mail systems out there.

wvengen wrote
      o database setup
      o redis setup (e.g. manual Docker container exposed in Foodsoft env?)
In our setup in Austria that's just adding the offical Docker images to the docker-compose.yml. I can share our repository with whoever will setup Docker. Unfortunately it still contains some private data, which is the reason why I can not publish it on GitHub ATM.

wvengen wrote
      o ssl setup with letsencrypt
In our setup in Austria we use a haproxy Docker container in front of the foodsoft Docker container. The certificates are generated in a seperate container with certbot and are shared with the haproxy via a volume.

wvengen wrote
      o figure out how we will manage app_config.yml
In our setup in Austria we build our own "private" foodsoft image based on "public" image (published on Docker hub), which just adds the app_config.yml via COPY to the image.
docker-compose.yml and the app_config.yml are managed via git.

wvengen wrote
      o document how to deploy
I'd suggest using Docker cloud and hooks where possible. So a push to the "config repository" (containing the docker-compose.yml) triggers a deployment.

wvengen wrote
  * Make sharedlists <http://github.com/bennibu/sharedlists> ready for
    deployment (required for shared suppliers).
      o Dockerize. Let's get bennibu's version done first (later
        foodcoop-adam's sharedlists
        <https://github.com/foodcoop-adam/sharedlists> - more later
        merge the two, perhaps).
      o figure out which suppliers we'll need to import, contact them
        for credentials, and configure.
Merging those two and moving them to the foodcoops organization would be a nice step. We want to put some effort into sharing supplier articles (at least for Vienna) in the near future. Reusing as much as possible and having a clear basis would be great.

wvengen wrote
On 08-08-17 17:36, Robert [via foodsoft] wrote:
> >   * Find a hosting provider.
> >       o Input welcome!
>
> https://www.netcup.de/vserver/
>
> With eco-power. We will probably be using it for another project.
Interesting, pretty cheap, enough scale for proper tooling (remote
console), while still using eco-power.

So we now have, for a virtual self-managed server:

  PROVIDER   RAM  CPU HD    BW    EUR/m ECO
  Leaseweb   2GB  2   60GB   6TB  10    
  Leaseweb   4GB  4   80GB   8TB  18    
  Greenhost  2GB  1   20GB   2TB  29     y
  Greenhost  4GB  2   50GB   4TB  49     y
  Hetzner    2GB  2   50GB   5TB   8    
  Hetzner    4GB  2  100GB   8TB  14    
  Netcup     2GB  2   40GB  25TB   4     y
  Netcup     4GB  4   80GB  25TB   5     y
  Netcup     8GB  6  160GB  25TB   9     y

Netcup looks like a good choice, with the current options I'd go for the
4GB RAM option and see if we can manage with that.
I can recommend Netcup. I use it for one of my projects and it's works without any problems so far.

--
Patrick
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Re: Technical steps

Julius
In reply to this post by Robert
Hey guys,

> I plan to go through all other points you @Willem and @Andre started as
> soon as possible (probably tomorrow).

I am sorry - was way too busy the last days: Today, I go on vacation
with my daughter and I had to finish too many things.

Netcup indeed looks fine. I like Docker a lot when I tried my first
steps. The sharedlists from bennibu's github dockerfile was using some
old version, so I did not get it running right away.

Please feel free to go ahead with your plans if you find some time -
finding a hoster, preparing the production setup with Docker, ...

We from Beisswat do not need the feature to reply to messages by email.

I will be back in two weeks.

Best wishes,
Julius
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Re: Technical steps

before
Administrator
Julius wrote
We from Beisswat do not need the feature to reply to messages by email.
We are using this the "reply to messages by email" feature in our food co-op.
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Re: Technical steps

paroga
Administrator
before wrote
Julius wrote
We from Beisswat do not need the feature to reply to messages by email.
We are using this the "reply to messages by email" feature in our food co-op.
I don't think that we talk about the same feature. There is difference between setting the Reply-To header to the email of the sending user (what you mean) and setting the Reply-To header to a specific email which gets handled by foodsoft. If you would use that feature your Reply-To addresses would look like "slug.123.123.a1b2c3d4@app.foodcoops.net", but since there is no MX entry for that domain it can't work.

- Patrick
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Re: Technical steps

before
Administrator
I double-checked our emails and the Reply-To header is set to the email address of the user.
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Re: Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator
In reply to this post by paroga
On 14-08-17 01:39, paroga [via foodsoft] wrote:
wvengen wrote
  * Make Foodsoft ready for deployment
      o Most people I've spoken to prefer Docker. I think that would be
        a great improvement to Capistrano.
I'd like to make Docker the default/prefered/offical deployment method.
I like that. Created issue #491 for the move.

wvengen wrote
      o There has been some recent work on Dockerization (PR#484
        <https://github.com/foodcoops/foodsoft/pull/484> pending).
        Docker Hub official foodsoft image is working again (thanks
        @paroga).
Do you think it's ready to be merged into master?
I think so (maybe one tiny non crucial bit).

wvengen wrote
      o Finish configuration with environment variables (we may be there
        already).
PR484 should do the trick.

wvengen wrote
      o sending mail (incl. anti-spam measures and documentation for
        subdomain-hosting)
What kind of anti-spam measures do you need for SENDING mails?
Many e-mail providers (for reading) do spam checking in different ways, and this changes over the years. This includes making sure your host doesn't end up on a blacklist; proper reverse dns; SPF records; DKIM signatures; maybe more. My experience is that the more of these techniques you use, the higher the chances are your mail is not being seen as spam.

Or use a mail sending service like Mandrill/Sendgrid/etc, but that costs.

wvengen wrote
      o receiving mail (recent mail hook addition, or perhaps figure
        this out later? I don't think app.foodcoops.net has this currently)
It's still in the "testing" phase and I wouldn't recommend to activate it on all production systems. I just enabled it for my foodcoop a few days ago (even the code is from february) and don't know about all possible cases which happen in the wild with all the different mail systems out there.
Agree.

wvengen wrote
      o database setup
      o redis setup (e.g. manual Docker container exposed in Foodsoft env?)
In our setup in Austria that's just adding the offical Docker images to the docker-compose.yml. I can share our repository with whoever will setup Docker. Unfortunately it still contains some private data, which is the reason why I can not publish it on GitHub ATM.
I'm not very experienced in using Docker for production, so have not much clue how deployment using plain Docker, docker-compose, ... would look like in practice. How do security updates work (does that need updates on docker hub, or would you upgrade system packages within the docker image)? We could either use a single redis and database docker container for all setups, or put it in docker-compose (I suppose the latter would be more automated and hopefully less error-prone and configuration work).

wvengen wrote
      o ssl setup with letsencrypt
In our setup in Austria we use a haproxy Docker container in front of the foodsoft Docker container. The certificates are generated in a seperate container with certbot and are shared with the haproxy via a volume.
Sounds like a good idea to do this in a separate container.

wvengen wrote
      o figure out how we will manage app_config.yml
In our setup in Austria we build our own "private" foodsoft image based on "public" image (published on Docker hub), which just adds the app_config.yml via COPY to the image.
docker-compose.yml and the app_config.yml are managed via git.
Does it make sense to use docker volumes for this? Git history on app_config (and env?) would be nice (but repo's need to be private - indeed, @Github or locally on server perhaps).

wvengen wrote
      o document how to deploy
I'd suggest using Docker cloud and hooks where possible. So a push to the "config repository" (containing the docker-compose.yml) triggers a deployment.
I do like the idea.

wvengen wrote
  * Make sharedlists <http://github.com/bennibu/sharedlists> ready for
    deployment (required for shared suppliers).
      o Dockerize. Let's get bennibu's version done first (later
        foodcoop-adam's sharedlists
        <https://github.com/foodcoop-adam/sharedlists> - more later
        merge the two, perhaps).
      o figure out which suppliers we'll need to import, contact them
        for credentials, and configure.
Merging those two and moving them to the foodcoops organization would be a nice step. We want to put some effort into sharing supplier articles (at least for Vienna) in the near future. Reusing as much as possible and having a clear basis would be great.
Sharedlists is so old that I'd almost rather rewrite it (e.g. with something like rails admin). But to avoid more work, I think your suggestion is the best next step :)

wvengen wrote
On 08-08-17 17:36, Robert [via foodsoft] wrote:
> >   * Find a hosting provider.
> >       o Input welcome!
>
> https://www.netcup.de/vserver/
>
> With eco-power. We will probably be using it for another project.
Interesting, pretty cheap, enough scale for proper tooling (remote
console), while still using eco-power.

So we now have, for a virtual self-managed server:

  PROVIDER   RAM  CPU HD    BW    EUR/m ECO
  Leaseweb   2GB  2   60GB   6TB  10    
  Leaseweb   4GB  4   80GB   8TB  18    
  Greenhost  2GB  1   20GB   2TB  29     y
  Greenhost  4GB  2   50GB   4TB  49     y
  Hetzner    2GB  2   50GB   5TB   8    
  Hetzner    4GB  2  100GB   8TB  14    
  Netcup     2GB  2   40GB  25TB   4     y
  Netcup     4GB  4   80GB  25TB   5     y
  Netcup     8GB  6  160GB  25TB   9     y

Netcup looks like a good choice, with the current options I'd go for the
4GB RAM option and see if we can manage with that.
I can recommend Netcup. I use it for one of my projects and it's works without any problems so far.
Good to hear.

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Re: Technical steps

paroga
Administrator
wvengen wrote
>     wvengen wrote
>           o sending mail (incl. anti-spam measures and documentation for
>             subdomain-hosting)
>
> What kind of anti-spam measures do you need for SENDING mails?
Many e-mail providers (for reading) do spam checking in different ways,
and this changes over the years. This includes making sure your host
doesn't end up on a blacklist; proper reverse dns; SPF records; DKIM
signatures; maybe more. My experience is that the more of these
techniques you use, the higher the chances are your mail is not being
seen as spam.

Or use a mail sending service like Mandrill/Sendgrid/etc, but that costs.
Ok, I see what you mean. How many email do you expect each month? There are free plans too and I don't see that we will reach the limits in the near future.

wvengen wrote
>     wvengen wrote
>           o database setup
>           o redis setup (e.g. manual Docker container exposed in
>     Foodsoft env?)
>
> In our setup in Austria that's just adding the offical Docker images
> to the docker-compose.yml. I can share our repository with whoever
> will setup Docker. Unfortunately it still contains some private data,
> which is the reason why I can not publish it on GitHub ATM.
I'm not very experienced in using Docker for production, so have not
much clue how deployment using plain Docker, docker-compose, ... would
look like in practice. How do security updates work (does that need
updates on docker hub, or would you upgrade system packages within the
docker image)? We could either use a single redis and database docker
container for all setups, or put it in docker-compose (I suppose the
latter would be more automated and hopefully less error-prone and
configuration work).
Doing system updates inside a container is the complete wrong way. You ALWAYS regenerate the whole container. Building is usually automated, e.g. on Docker hub.

I'd recommend using docker-compose! Then you do it the Docker way and you can reuse the existing and offical images. I can setup a minimal setup for the global instance, so you have something to start and play with it.

wvengen wrote
>     wvengen wrote
>           o ssl setup with letsencrypt
>
> In our setup in Austria we use a haproxy Docker container in front of
> the foodsoft Docker container. The certificates are generated in a
> seperate container with certbot and are shared with the haproxy via a
> volume.
Sounds like a good idea to do this in a separate container.
I can add this to the sample docker-compose too, if there is an interest.

wvengen wrote
>     wvengen wrote
>           o figure out how we will manage app_config.yml
>
> In our setup in Austria we build our own "private" foodsoft image
> based on "public" image (published on Docker hub), which just adds the
> app_config.yml via COPY to the image.
> docker-compose.yml and the app_config.yml are managed via git.
Does it make sense to use docker volumes for this? Git history on
app_config (and env?) would be nice (but repo's need to be private -
indeed, @Github or locally on server perhaps).
app_config.yml is a configuration file, which should be version controlled. So a Docker volume is the wrong way IMHO. What kind of sensitive data do you see in the app_config.yml? In Austria we pass our database passwords via environment variables. So no sensitive data is stored in the file.

wvengen wrote
>     wvengen wrote
>       * Make sharedlists <http://github.com/bennibu/sharedlists>
>     <http://github.com/bennibu/sharedlists%3E> ready for
>         deployment (required for shared suppliers).
>           o Dockerize. Let's get bennibu's version done first (later
>             foodcoop-adam's sharedlists
>             <https://github.com/foodcoop-adam/sharedlists>
>     <https://github.com/foodcoop-adam/sharedlists%3E> - more later
>             merge the two, perhaps).
>           o figure out which suppliers we'll need to import, contact them
>             for credentials, and configure.
>
> Merging those two and moving them to the foodcoops organization would
> be a nice step. We want to put some effort into sharing supplier
> articles (at least for Vienna) in the near future. Reusing as much as
> possible and having a clear basis would be great.
Sharedlists is so old that I'd almost rather rewrite it (e.g. with
something like rails admin <https://github.com/sferik/rails_admin>). But
to avoid more work, I think your suggestion is the best next step :)
Having a roadmap for that in the near future would be great, so we coordinate our work in Austria with all the other users.
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Re: Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator
In reply to this post by before

Great, we'll keep reply-to-foodsoft-by-email as something for the future, also because it's not really production tested. And, now we find, not enabledon app.foodcoops.net.


On 16-08-17 14:50, before [via foodsoft] wrote:
I double-checked our emails and the Reply-To header is set to the email address of the user.


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Re: Technical steps

wvengen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Julius

Thanks, Julius. Have a great holiday!

- Willem


On 15-08-17 10:44, Julius [via foodsoft] wrote:
Hey guys,

> I plan to go through all other points you @Willem and @Andre started as
> soon as possible (probably tomorrow).

I am sorry - was way too busy the last days: Today, I go on vacation
with my daughter and I had to finish too many things.

Netcup indeed looks fine. I like Docker a lot when I tried my first
steps. The sharedlists from bennibu's github dockerfile was using some
old version, so I did not get it running right away.

Please feel free to go ahead with your plans if you find some time -
finding a hoster, preparing the production setup with Docker, ...

We from Beisswat do not need the feature to reply to messages by email.

I will be back in two weeks.

Best wishes,
Julius



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